Utah Open Carry

[David Nelson]

Given that Utah laws allow for open carry (loaded or one-action-fire for CFPs, unloaded or two-action-fire for non-CFPs), I was pleased to find OpenCarry.org (http://www.opencarry.org/) with a Utah-specific forum.

Where do YOU carry openly?

[xds&gsps]

I usually only open carry when I am hunting, hiking or camping.

I had an interesting experience a couple of months back while I was open carrying. I was on my way to go pheasant hunting & got pulled over. I had my XD9 in a nylon holster on my belt at 3 0'clock. The officer (UHP) came to my passenger side & had a clear view of my gun from where he was standing I of course presented my cwp quickly & informed him that I did have a loaded gun right here on my side. He was a very nice guy & I am not bashing him in the least bit here. (just a disclaimer there) He told me that he didn't think I was aloud to carry loaded. I told him (very politely that to the furthest of my knowledge since I did have my cwp I was aloud to open carry while loaded. He said he would check into it. Well he spent about 20 minutes in his car & came back & told me that what he had read was that I was aloud to open carry as long as it was not loaded & that I should look into it. Like I said he was awesome he didn't give me a ticket at all. I just wanted to post this & get some opinions.

[WhipTrackerCracker]

When I took my concealed firearms class I was told that I could not open carry in encorporated cities and only out in the country. I later found about open carry and became similarly confused. When I read the statues, they mentioned the concealed carry permit allows me to carry loaded on my person, with no mention of concealed or open. There is also a statute that says without the permit a person can carry openly unloaded. With this information I went to the BCI for more instruction. I have already carried open when hiking for some time, but I am a long haired male college student, making me just a prime target to be stomped on by unknowing authorities. The straight fact from the BCI, which who were very nice, is that Utah is a open carry state and that having a ccw allows you to open carry loaded. Unfotunately, I guess many departments tend to instruct their employees otherwise. He told me that a man had been pulled into court by an officer in west jordan. The court ruled that there is nothing in the statues that say he cannot open carry with a loaded weapon as long as he has a permit and is doing so in a legal manner. (AKA no assault or battery) Because it does not seem to be a well known fact, I always carry the printed off current statues in my wallet with my permit. This way, if there is an encounter, I can pull out the laws and show the absense of a law against open carry. Guaranteed hands down most law enforcement I have encountered say otherwise. But, the big dogs say its true. I personally need to get a higher perceived social status other than a college student, before I would dare open cary in a city. I think in my case its asking for trouble. But, my tidbit on what I have found out and researched.

[combat master]

I know I'll probably get flamed for this but my Instructor told me that West Jordan Cops are among the 3 worst in the state for violating the rights of CCW'ers here in Utah.

As the previous posters have stated Open carry with or without a CCW is legal. without a CCW it just has to be unloaded. I have open carried for years and years and have never been hassled, ever. Then again I don't recall ever openly carrying in West Jordan.

[glock36]

What would be the point of carrying unloaded?

[combat master]

I meant to say " that without a CCW it must be unloaded" and openly carried. And Glock 36 Unloaded in Utah does not mean without ammo.

[glock36]

Ahh i see. thank you

[xds&gsps]

To clarify a bit more unloaded in Utah means (for a semi-auto) no round in the chamber, (for revolver) no round in firing position or next position over.

[glock36]

so if your in a situation thats right here right now your supose to say, " hey hold on a min while i rack one in"? and i know most people would say well it only takes a second to rack a gun, but sometimes thats all you have. sounds like a law that needs changed.

my 2 cents

[combat master]

No, you just carry it fully loaded and with a CCW.

You may or may not have the extra time to rack a round , and then again you may not have the extra hand to rack the slide with either. It may be in the process of deflecting a knife or fist.

Regardless of the way you carry people need to know how to quickly rack the slide using only 1 hand.

[glock36]

Yeah and that sucks racking it against your leg.

[combat master]

Leg, yeah did that and snagged a good pair of BDU's .

Now I use my chin. :) or heel of my boot.

[glock36]

Thats a good idea on the boot, hope i never have to but i'll remember that!

[xds&gsps]

No, you just carry it fully loaded and with a CCW.

BINGO

I have never thought about having to rack the slide one handed that does present a bit of an issue doesn't it. I am gonna have to practice that. Carrying a revolver does eliminate that problem, but then I only have 5 rounds instead of 13 +. Decisions decisions. I guess just carry both huh.

[glock36]

Yeah i was taught to reload with one hand by dropping the mag, squat down holding the pistol behind the knee, reload mag, and rack against your leg. I recommend all but the leg part. The boot seems less painful :)

[David Nelson]

> From: [David Nelson]
> To: chris.burbank@slcgov.com, slcpd@slcgov.com
> Cc: uag@utah.gov, slcattorney@slcgov.com, terry.fritz@slcgov.com, kyle.jones@slcgov.com, scott.atkinson@slcgov.com, robert.linton@slcgov.com
> Subject: COMPLAINT: Salt Lake City Police Department Lt. Rusty Isakson
> Date: Sun, Jun 03, 2007, 04:58 PM
>
> June 3, 2007
>
> Chief Chris Burbank
> Salt Lake City Police Department
> 315 East 200 South
> Salt Lake City, Utah 84111-2106
>
> Re: COMPLAINT: Salt Lake City Police Department Lt. Rusty Isakson
>
> Dear Chief Burbank:
>
> This message is my complaint against Salt Lake City Police Department Lt. Rusty Isakson for his official on-duty actions with me on June 3 at about 10:30 a.m. near 450 South 200 East.
>
> As a co-founder of its parent corporation, I purchased an admission ticket and attended the gay Utah Pride Festival (a public-accommodation event which was produced wholly on public property). As the owner of the gay Stonewall Shooting Sports of Utah group, I'm also an advocate for the U.S. Constitutional Second Amendment right to keep and bear arms. This is well known and wouldn't surprise an average event patron.
>
> As a Utah Concealed Firearm Permit holder, I possessed and carried my firearm unconcealed, but holstered, at the event. I never unholstered it or displayed in a threatening way. In fact, my firearm was unloaded according to state laws (no chambered cartridge). I carefully reviewed the advance published event rules; they didn't prohibit my possession or unconcealed carrying.
>
> After I presented my ticket to a main-gate staffer and entered the event, security staffers and organizers met me and asked about my possession and unconcealed carrying. I answered their questions simply and truthfully, and told them that: 1) state laws and event rules didn't prohibit my possession and unconcealed carrying, 2) my possession and unconcealed carrying was legal according to state laws which govern CFP weapons whether concealed or unconcealed, and unloaded firearms, and 3) I was uncomfortable concealing my firearm voluntarily. As a Utahn with disabilities who uses a cane, my possession and unconcealed carrying is as much a visual deterrent of violence as it is a more responsive and reliable mode of carrying if I need it.
>
> The staffers and organizers didn't tell me I was in violation of any laws or rule, or that I was trespassing. They confirmed and knew I was a ticketed patron, but asked Lt. Isakson to detain and question me anyway. I answered his questions simply and truthfully, and told him that: 1) state laws and event rules didn't prohibit my possession and unconcealed carrying, 2) my possession and unconcealed carrying was legal according to state laws which govern CFP weapons whether concealed or unconcealed, and unloaded firearms, and 3) I was uncomfortable concealing my firearm.
>
> Isakson told me that: 1) the "premise" of state CFP laws requires a weapon to be concealed, 2) he was "concerned" that the public "might be threatened" by seeing my firearm, and 3) despite agreeing that I hadn't violated any laws, he'd enforce my ejection from the event for these reasons. I replied that state laws 63-98-102 and 76-10-500 among others prohibit and preempt "a local authority … [from enforcing] any ordinance, regulation, rule, or policy pertaining to firearms that in any way inhibits or restricts the possession or use of firearms on either public or private property," Ignoring the laws, he opened SLCPD report 07-98871 and noted my CFP identifying information despite it being irrelevant and unnecessary for my possession and unconcealed carrying of an unloaded firearm. He told me that he'd send an unsolicited copy of his report to the Utah Bureau of Criminal Identification for their review, and that "one sure way to lose [my] permit is to abuse it like this." His implication seemed clear to me: He was intentionally jeopardizing my CFP. He then asked me "to leave" the event property. It was the first such request of me by anyone involved in the matter, and I left immediately.
>
> I believe that Isakson's actions were: 1) grossly and specifically violative of state laws 63-98-102 and 76-10-500, 2) generally mistaken of state CFP laws, and 3) generally negligent of the SLCPD Code of Ethics by which he'd "respect the constitutional rights of all." He was notably professional in every other respect.
>
> Chief Burbank, please reply to this message and answer these three questions:
>
> 1. Did Isakson violate the state laws 63-98-102 and 76-10-500?
>
> 2. Did Isakson mistake the state CFP laws as they relate to any requirement to conceal?
>
> 3. Did Isakson neglect the SLCPD Code of Ethics?
>
> Please also confirm to me that 1) all SLCPD law-enforcement officers know, understand and obey the state laws that refer specifically to the right to keep and bear arms, and preempt their authority when it "inhibits or restricts the possession or use of firearms" differently than state laws do.
>
> I request finally that Isakson's report be immediately and administratively resolved in my favor with copies delivered to BCI and me (considering the unusual circumstances of this matter, I request these copies be provided according to public-records laws and free of charge), and that he apologize to me for his wrong actions in at least as public a way as he committed them when he and his motorcycle subordinate detained and questioned me for about 30 minutes while many event staffers and other patrons watched. I believe you'll agree that such extraordinary actions aren't only illegal and wrong, but also require extraordinary responses.
>
> Thank you for your deliberate and prompt reply. Please contact me if you have comments or questions about this message with which I may help you.
>
> Respectfully,
>
> David Nelson
> Salt Lake City
>
> cc: Utah Attorney General Mark L. Shurtleff
>
> Salt Lake City Attorney Ed Rutan
>
> Operations Bureau Commander Assistant Chief Terry A. Fritz
>
> Special Operations Division Commander Capt. Kyle Jones
>
> Investigations Bureau Assistant Chief C. Scott Atkinson
>
> Internal Affairs Division Commander Capt. Robert Linton

[xds&gsps]

Thanks for posting this David, let us know how this turns out. It amazes me how little some officers know about the law. I realize that there are a million different laws & to know all of them would take quite a bit of studying, but the officer that pulled me over had no idea about the legality of loaded open carry w/a cfp also. One would think that gun laws would be one of the first sections of the law they would study. I would hate to see someone lose there right to protect themselves & their family over a lack of knowledge on the officers part. I am in no way stereotyping police-officers, they do a job that I wouldn't want to & should earn more $ as far as I'm concerned.

[Vengeful]

Its funny that David should mention that, I recently called my local police station and they told me that they didn't know if Utah is an open carry state or not, he told me to research it on the Internet. How can the local authorities not know if its legal or not? I also took the CCW class recently and the instructor even told me that Utah is NOT an open carry state. I went straight to the source and called the SLC BCI and I confirmed that Utah IS a open carry state. That raises so many red flags now. Was everything my instructor taught me wrong? I know the basics but I was also told that these are the places that you can not carry, a house of worship, a private residence( other than your own), A federal building, library, federal parks, and air ports. the instructor did tell me that 1 never tell anyone that you have a firearm... which is a no brainer, but I was also told by this instructor that there is no business open to the public that can deny your right to carry. I know if its concealed it shouldn't be a problem. What I want to know is why I saw and elderly gentle man get asked to leave Target out of all places, the last time I checked it was open to the public. the manager of the place gave me a bunch of crap when told him that Utah is an open carry state. He told me that it is private property and that they had the right to ask this old guy to leave. Is this right can he do that? I mean seriously they called the cops on this old guy. Thats excessive. If the state law allows you to carry at your place of residence and your place of work and if it is not posted can he really do that? Makes me want to open carry into Target just to piss them off.
Please if someone could enlighten me on this is would be a great help.

Thanks,

[WhipTrackerCracker]

Since when has the "premise" of anything suddenly meant it is a law. The was grossly irresponsible for someone to assume it is against the law just because the license says 'concealed firearm permit'. The officer should have been dragging out his law book or calling in an on-duty officer to get the straight information. I would have probably requested his supervisor about half way through the conversation. I would not fret too much about the report to the BCI. Since talking with them, it sounds like this happens often. And the Lt. over there says "all law enforcement officers in Utah, WILL follow those rules". If they come across the report, it probably will not be a surprise to them. I would personally call them and inform them of what happened. This way they are aware if the report comes in and can wait to judge it because who knows how much of an antagonist the report makes you out to be. I'll be interested to hear the response. Disability is the reason I carry, although open is something I have yet to do often.

[WhipTrackerCracker]

A business can throw you out if they want too. Carrying open in a store may not be illegal by state law, but a business can ask you to leave. They have the right, because it is actually their property. With or without a sign. Think of if you were to have a garage sale. Its your property but you are allowing patrons to shop on it. The manager is right on that. If you do not leave you could be charged with criminal tresspass. Walmart has a policy of allowing concealed carry but if you open carry they will most likely ask you to leave or cover up. Its not that you cannot carry open or concealed in a public business with or without a sign. You can. But a business does have the civil means of which to ask you to leave for any reason. So them putting up a sign means nothing to a cfp owner, but they do have the power to take seperate means. If that makes sense. "Deny" is probably the wrong word, its more that a anti firearm sign in a public business is not valid to state law. Carrying even with a sign does not get you in trouble with state law. But a business can still charge you with criminal tresspass if they ask you to leave and you do not. Getting asked to leave during OC is probably one that could be argued but its borderline with a businesses rights. Its a difference between state law and small court civil charges.


Its funny that David should mention that, I recently called my local police station and they told me that they didn't know if Utah is an open carry state or not, he told me to research it on the Internet. How can the local authorities not know if its legal or not? I also took the CCW class recently and the instructor even told me that Utah is NOT an open carry state. I went straight to the source and called the SLC BCI and I confirmed that Utah IS a open carry state. That raises so many red flags now. Was everything my instructor taught me wrong? I know the basics but I was also told that these are the places that you can not carry, a house of worship, a private residence( other than your own), A federal building, library, federal parks, and air ports. the instructor did tell me that 1 never tell anyone that you have a firearm... which is a no brainer, but I was also told by this instructor that there is no business open to the public that can deny your right to carry. I know if its concealed it shouldn't be a problem. What I want to know is why I saw and elderly gentle man get asked to leave Target out of all places, the last time I checked it was open to the public. the manager of the place gave me a bunch of crap when told him that Utah is an open carry state. He told me that it is private property and that they had the right to ask this old guy to leave. Is this right can he do that? I mean seriously they called the cops on this old guy. Thats excessive. If the state law allows you to carry at your place of residence and your place of work and if it is not posted can he really do that? Makes me want to open carry into Target just to piss them off.
Please if someone could enlighten me on this is would be a great help.

Thanks,

[Vengeful]

WhipTrackerCracker,

Thanks for the reply and that sounds more than reasonable. I just felt really bad for the guy but still the law is the law and I totally understand that I for one am not above it and its just pretty nice to know that my views on self protection are not a lonely view. Very cool forum. I have learned so very much already. Thanks to you all.

[David Nelson]

Paul Rolly might have misunderstood my conversation with him about the constitutional rights to assemble and bear arms ("The competing rights of packing a gun and peaceable assembly," The Salt Lake Tribune, June 10).

The rights aren't mutually exclusive. I meant to enjoy both at the Pride Festival. There was no "collision" of rights for me, and I don't know of such a collision for anyone there except those event organizers and Salt Lake City Police Department officers who admitted that I hadn't violated any laws or rules, but feared that others "might feel threatened" by my legal behavior.

There's no confusion about Utah weapons laws. Unconcealed possession of weapons is NOT illegal in most cases. Police Lt. Rusty Isakson (not Isaacson) agreed with this fact. I suspect most legislators do too, so there isn't much to clarify.

I didn't say that my permit lets me possess a firearm "virtually anywhere," but I do understand the times and places where I may do so. What failed to be described in this report is the fact that my firearm was unloaded according to Utah laws at the time.

Charles (not James) Hardy possessed his unconcealed firearm at the 2007 Legislature as did I. Both of us were, in fact, asked about them; he by a Utah Highway Patrol officer, me by a legislator. Once satisfied of the lawfulness of our firearms, no more questions were asked. That's how it should work.

Finally, I've never "packed," "toted," "flaunted," "strapped," "paraded" or "strutted" while in possession of my firearm. It's insulting to suggest that firearms owners do. While I believe Paul Rolly has the right to be so vainglorious with his liberties, I take mine more seriously.

> June 10, 2007
>
> The Salt Lake Tribune
>
> Rolly: The competing rights of packing a gun and peaceable assembly
>
> By Paul Rolly
>
> By trying to enforce a gay and lesbian group's First Amendment right to peaceably assemble, the Salt Lake City Police Department may have violated one person's Second Amendment right to keep and bear arms. At least that's what the gun-toter believes....
>
> [More] http://www.sltrib.com/opinion/ci_6102977

[David Nelson]

POLICE CHIEF APOLOGIZES ABOUT GUN EJECTION

Salt Lake City Police Chief Chris Burbank apologized personally on July 17 to me for the actions of Lt. Rusty Isakson to eject me in June from the Utah Pride festival for possessing an unconcealed firearm. Burbank also commended my understanding of the applicable laws and pursuit of a reasonable resolution, and promised that more instruction about the laws would be required of all officers.

After being ejected, I filed a complaint with Burbank against Isakson for "violating state laws which prohibit 'a local authority … [from enforcing] any ordinance, regulation, rule, or policy pertaining to firearms that in any way inhibits or restricts the possession or use of firearms on either public or private property.'"

Meanwhile, I filed a $25,000 claim against Salt Lake City Corp. about the matter in which I described Isakson's actions as "facially unlawful and tortious in their violation of my constitutional, civil and legal rights pursuant to the U.S. Constitution, the Utah Constitution and Utah laws 63-98-102 and 76-10-500, and willful misconduct of [Isakson's] professional duties and ethics."

[xds&gsps]

Wow glad to hear that turned out well for you then. (As well as it could have I guess) :D

[WhipTrackerCracker]

Good to hear....more evidence that the rest of the LEO departments here need to understand. Glad it worked out.

[UTOC-45-44]

Given that Utah laws allow for open carry (loaded or one-action-fire for CFPs, unloaded or two-action-fire for non-CFPs), I was pleased to find OpenCarry.org (http://www.opencarry.org/) with a Utah-specific forum.

Where do YOU carry openly?

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Utah Code Section 76-10-50576-10-505. Carrying loaded firearm in vehicle or on street. (1) Unless otherwise authorized by law, a person may not carry a loaded firearm: ...
le.utah.gov/~code/TITLE76/htm/76_0C034.htm - 2k - Cached - Similar pages


76-10-505. Carrying loaded firearm in vehicle or on street.
(1) Unless otherwise authorized by law, a person may not carry a loaded firearm:
(a) in or on a vehicle;
(b) on any public street; or
(c) in a posted prohibited area.
(2) A violation of this section is a class B misdemeanor.

Amended by Chapter 328, 1990 General Session
Download Code Section Zipped WP 6/7/8 76_0C034.ZIP 1,712 Bytes

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If you have a CFP you can OC pretty much everywhere where you can CC. There might be some places that have "NO GUN" / "NO WEAPON" sign, just CC cuz the signage don't carry any weight in Utah. But if you are "discovered" you have to leave or can be Charged with Trespassing.

If you don't have a CFP there are quite alot of "limitations" ie. you in theory cannot carry in a vehicle.

Clark Aposhian with BCI is the Chairman of the Board and is VERY helpful with ANY questions that you may have. His Ph # is (801) 560-4836

[xds&gsps]

I was at Wal-mart last night ocing it was about 9:30 or so. I went about getting the things I needed & decided to go back to sporting goods to see if they had any good deals back there. As I was walking down one of the larger aisles an assistant manager was walking the oppsite direction. He looked at me & right away I knew he was kinda freaked out cause he looked at me & his eyes got kinda big & he says "how are you?" The whole time staring at my 45. I said fine & continued walking. After wandering around sporting goods for a bit I walked back towards the front of the store, as I passed the candy aisle I saw the same manager & he watched me as I passed, then about a minute later I hear "uhh excuse me" I turned around & there is a younger man w/an assitant manager badge on. He says "are you a cop?" I said no I'm not. (the other assitant manager came up behind him) So he asks "should that be concealed?" I said "no not neccesarily, in the state of Utah I can legally open carry w/a concealed permit." At this point he takes a step back & looks like he is going to pee his pants. I said "relax I am not upset you are asking me" The other guy says "we were just a bit concerned." I said that is ok. Honestly I was thinking have you never seen a gun in your life? The older man said he didn't know what their policy was. I said "well as far as I know I am within my rights" "It is the guys that hide them illegally that you need to worry about; thanks guys" and I walked away.

I didn't do as good a job as I should have at educating them about carrying I realize that now. I didn't even give them a reason for why I was carrying. It is my first time being confronted & honestly I was in shock a bit. I will have to work on teaching better. Any tips on discussing this with people (strangers in particular).